The Day's Journey of the Dead Man: The Secrets of New Mexico's Jornada del Muerto

Step into New Mexico's treacherous Jornada del Muerto with our latest installment of "The Enchantment Chronicles." Unravel the motives propelling Spanish settlers to navigate this formidable desert, eschewing the Rio Grande's waters and Apache skirmishes in a bid to reach Santa Fe. We also recount the harrowing saga of Bernardo Gruber, the German whose tragic encounter with the Spanish Inquisition led to his desperate final flight into the unforgiving Jornada. We explore how Captain Jack Martin's post-Civil War discovery kept sustained a small community on the Jornada ponder the complex legacy of land magnate Ted Turner, and briefly discuss (once again) the atomic echoes of the Trinity site. The narrative comes full circle at the Salinas Pueblo missions, where the persistence of indigenous cultures amidst European influence unveils a history rich with the interplay of conquest, trade, and survival. Join us as we piece together the intricate mosaic that is New Mexico's storied past.

Links and Resources:

https://bacafamily.org/jornada-del-muerto/

https://www.prestonchild.com/books/mountdragon/JORNADA-DEL-MUERTO-Retracing-the-Dead-Man-s-Journey;art44,40

https://genealogytrails.com/newmex/sierra/history_aleman.html

https://socorro-history.org/HISTORY/PH_History/200905_armendaris.pdf

https://www.nps.gov/elca/planyourvisit/jornada-del-muerto.htm

https://geoinfo.nmt.edu/resources/water/projects/bwa/JornadaDelMuerto/

Transcript

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The Enchantment Chronicles

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to the enchantment chronicles . We are the men of enchantment , and today we're gonna talk about la jornada de mato .

Speaker 2 0:24

The journey of the dead man , sorry .

Speaker 1 0:28

I was gonna ask you drew . Do you know Spanish well enough to Translate ?

Speaker 2 0:34

Well , yeah , yeah , I guess I do . I know that much . I don't know a lot of Spanish , but uh , I've been at some of the jornada sites . Um , yeah , it's uh pretty bleakly named and it could be named after A couple of dead guys that we could discuss right .

Speaker 2 0:55

Probably more than two , that's for sure , yeah yeah , uh , it was that section of the what became the Camino Al the , the royal road up from Mexico City all the way up to Santa Fe , new Mexico . Um , it was just A brutal , brutal section . Why ? Why would they go through the desert ? Why would they leave the comforts of the Rio Grande ?

Speaker 1 1:26

Well , we're gonna talk about that and let's just First off , for those who don't know , the hornata del marto . Obviously it means the journey of the dead man , um , but the location it is Approximately um 120 miles long , 150 miles long , um , and about 20 to 30 , 40 miles wide . It is in between Um , the on san andres mountains and the Fra Cristobal Range and the Gabao .

Speaker 1 2:02

Mountains and um To the northern part is the where the trinity site is , and on the southern part is Just north of Los Cruces . What is now Los Cruces ? What was then ?

Speaker 1 2:17

Nothing when it first started , but now um it was Doniana and drew , there's a I-25 checkpoint , checkpoint board patrol checkpoint on I-25 , and just south of that there's a rest stop and supposedly at least that's what the historical marker says that's where the first Spanish settlers Uh camped before they went into the range , and it's north from there and Approximately where it's ex , where the exit is approximately near Secorro , which means help in Spanish . Yeah , so this place had no water when the Spanish were coming through , but that wasn't always the case .

Speaker 1 3:02

When the Spanish came through , there was no water and the reason why they went that way was because they could not , or it was at least much more difficult to go through . Uh , what is now T or C ? And wrap around the river with oxen and yeah , wheels and etc .

Speaker 2 3:23

Yeah , I'm struck by the the maps that we have . We have one from , uh , this , the 1758 uh banado de mierra ipecheco's map from the palace of the governors and , and you can see , they kind of thought the Rio Grande bent a little more dramatic than it really does . But Right , right there where today , um , the canyons have been filled in by elephant butte lake and uh , um , and by the dams there , uh , that travel got way too rugged through those canyons along the Rio Grande , um , so they they kind of had to leave the banks of the river where there was this Ready water supply , and they had to pass through those planes , through the desert and it was brutal . And , and you mentioned to johnny that down at the Geronimo Springs Museum in T or C , they have another explanation for why , even without the the danger of trying to get carts and Oxen through those cliffs and canyons , there was another danger out there at T or C , right , johnny ?

Speaker 1 4:39

uh , yeah , it was . It was a difficult uh journey , to say the least , but , um , when the Spanish came through , at least , um , hot springs , or what is now T or C , is where the apaches would come down from the Gila and come down from mescalero and and all meet up and um . For the Spanish , at least , it was by passing that area , um to give them a little bit more peace , um , from from the natives who would , who knew the region better than the spanish spaniards at the time .

Speaker 1 5:21

Yeah yeah , so so , but before that , um , it wasn't always so dry , mm-hmm . Now , if you go out in there and and another thing to to know , or the another another location now is space port . Space port america is at the southern port portion of this , um , ironically enough , uh , hornata de mordo , um , I don't know what that means In the long run , but space port america is essentially the entry point of the , uh , the hornata de mordo journey .

Speaker 2 6:01

Yeah , but it's a nice empty .

Speaker 1 6:06

Yeah .

Speaker 2 6:07

Nice empty desert is a good place to test Missiles or launch rockets .

Speaker 1 6:12

That's why I drop atomic bombs . Yes .

Speaker 1 6:16

Yeah , so nobody lives out there . Uh , very few animals live out there . There's very little water out there . Now it is Hot beyond belief and I don't know if you've ever been out there drew . But I went out there , I don't know , three or four or five years ago and it was the first time in a long time where I was looking at my gas tank and saying I I don't know if I want to risk this journey without sufficient gas and water . It was in the middle of the summer and it was . It was quite hot , 110 , 115 degrees . Oh , when I was out there , um , but it wasn't always so dry and and way back in the day , um , there were lots of uh native , native , um indigenous peoples who inhabited the region . Um , there was evidence to the north of the hornata , down there , near uh , near what is the trinity site and kind of kerososo region up north , where the the uh malpice , the volcanic Remnants of the volcano that has come through . There's evidence of native people 10 000 years ago , 11 000 years ago , 9 000 bce um .

Speaker 1 7:33

But some reason , for some reason they took off and they think it was a lot wetter , and then it started to dry up .

Speaker 2 7:45

Yeah , the same kind of phenomenon that probably had that lake where we talked about the footprints from 20,000 years ago near White Sands . Similar topography , similar geography , and when it was water it would have been a lot easier to live there . So we found our oldest evidence of human habitation in North America currently is not far from there . It's where some kids were playing and getting picked up and carried by some adults along a lake that dried up long since , but that's why we have the gypsum at White Sands . You know all that lake bed gypsum that's become the sand now that has formed one of our national parks here in New Mexico . All right , well , Onyate braved this journey what and on his first trip north in 15,000 years 92 , 94 , something like that .

Speaker 2 9:00

I think he went up in . Didn't he go up in 98 ? Late 1500s .

Speaker 1 9:10

Let's go with that 1590 . Yeah .

Speaker 2 9:14

But in any event , he brought the first European livestock on that journey we talked about in the last episode . Prior to that , it was pretty much just what turkeys and dogs were the domesticated animals of the native people here and he brought pigs and oxen and horses into our back here . They'd been here .

Speaker 1 9:48

If I remember correctly and from our last podcast about Onyate , he brought something like what four , five , six thousand head of animals , herd of cattle and sheep and all sorts of different things he brought them in . So they must have braved the hornata del marto all together at that time , I would presume .

Speaker 2 10:11

Yeah , yeah , yeah , he did finally make it in 1598 . He came through . But in 1599 , we have our first candidate for a named dead man . Certainly there are some estimates from the hornata that there might have been a gravesite every couple of miles along there . But in 1599 , his cousin Frá Cristobal de Salazar , tried to head back to Mexico City and did not make it . So that mountain range became named after . I don't know if we say Frá Fré , fré Frá Cristobal , some people say it looks like it looks like the priests , but certainly that's that Onyate named that particular range which forms that boundary of the hornata After our cousin . They did not survive his first expedition , didn't make it back to Mexico City alive .

Speaker 1 11:40

Not the first and not the last , I presume .

Speaker 2 11:43

No , no , but obviously they did make it up . And the rest of them Onyate did become New Mexico's first European governor colonized , as we talked about .

Trade Routes and the German Escape

Speaker 1 12:12

But this route , even though Onyate was the first one , who did it ? First European , supposedly , who did it ? This became a very important segment of the trade route between Mexico City and Santa Fe . The last outpost of Mexico or Spain at the time of the hornata de Muerte , became the most crucial segment of the trade route and the Camino Real .

Speaker 2 12:46

Right , and even today . I mean , I've been near there and we've seen javelinas , the wild pig descendants and their periodic wild horse , I guess cullings or gatherings from the White Sands missile range , because that whole ecosystem is profoundly affected by the fact that pigs were driven down the trails . Horse sheep were brought down those trails to Mexico City . That was one of the earliest forms of livelihood up here was people would raise sheep and bring their pigs back down to Mexico and sell them and then come back with whatever manufactured grids they could get from down there .

Speaker 1 13:47

Yeah , before the Spanish , before the Spaniards came , there was still a relatively extensive trade network between New Mexicans , or the indigenous people of what is now New Mexico and southern Mexico .

Speaker 2 14:05

Yeah , we'll probably do a whole episode later on Chaco , but in the intestinal Pueblo and Chaco had feathers parrot feathers from all the way down in Mexico City they had shells from the Pacific Ocean and even copper from the Great Lakes region , so there were trade routes that connected everywhere . These European explorers are often really just traveling paths that have had many feet trotting them for millennia up until then . And again that kind of picture you're kind of picturing , cutting off it around hatch and cutting across the desert , passing behind those mountains , right by Elephant Butte Lake and Caballo now , and going up through those plains all the way up north and I guess our next candidate should we talk about our next candidate for the dead man ?

Speaker 1 15:10

It's a cool story . You know it best , so go for it .

Speaker 2 15:12

Okay , yeah , so this is from a national monument , the Salinas Pueblo missions national monument , a little south of Albuquerque , down near mountain . There there are three missions built there and at that time the Spanish were . You know , they're named the Salinas missions because there's salt that you can gather . But at the time the Inquisition was pretty active here . So there was a man named El Alaman , the German , and he was arrested by the office of the Holy Inquisition and you know as he what's the Manipata in sketch .

Speaker 2 16:10

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition Well , no one expected the Inquisition to be so powerful up here . But they had a serious tension . They had arguments with governors and even arranged to have a couple of early governors arrested and tried . But the German was unfortunate . He was selling trinkets . He snuck into the choir loft where the Pueblons were singing for Sunday services and he was selling some trinkets . So it's kind of hard to imagine what they were exactly . In one account they might have been pieces of paper that they could swallow and they would be protected from harm . It's kind of strange to imagine a German coming out here . But New Mexico was the end of the world , you know . It was maybe where a lot of people came for refuge from that very same Spanish Inquisition or from others , but he wound up getting arrested for two years in the early 1700s .

Speaker 1 17:24

And let's see what was his name . Gruber was his name and the German Bernardo Gruber .

Speaker 2 17:39

Yeah , so presumably he was born Graphnag or something , but he was arrested . Let's see . When did he get ? He was arrested . According to the National Park Service and the local author , douglas Preston , he was arrested in 1670 , but there's some tension about whether they have the authority to arrest him and he wind up just kind of sitting in prison there for a couple of years in a jail cell waiting to get sent back to Mexico for a trial . And there's a couple of names Atencio , atenacio but he had an Apache companion servant maybe , who eventually gets tired of waiting for Gruber to get out , so he breaks him out of jail and they take off the Apache again . Atenacio , atencio . He took a horse and a harkabus and they headed out into the Honaro .

Speaker 2 19:12

The German El Alamán was a guy named Bernardo Gruber presumably Bernardo Gruber , and this is a story from the Salinas Pueblo missions , just near Mount Nair , a little south of Albuquerque , those national monuments where the Spanish had established three missions named after the salt they were using or trading in . But they had indigenous labor build these big churches . And Gruber snuck into a choir loft where the Puebloans were singing and was selling some charms . They might have been pieces of paper that he was saying , get swallowed and they would protect you from harm . And he winds up running afoul of the Inquisition which even up here , the very end of the Spanish Empire , was a threat . They had tensions with some of our governors . They arrested a couple governors . They arrest Gruber in 1670 , but because there was disputes about whether they have the authority to do so , he just languishes . He's sitting there in a jail cell for over a year before his Apache companion , sometimes named Atenacio , sometimes Atencio , but a Apache companion or a servant or a friend , gets tired of waiting for him , so he breaks him out of jail . But unfortunately Gruber had been in a small cell for a while and they head out across the Honada with a horse and a harkabas and they flee trying to escape the office of the Inquisition .

Speaker 2 21:18

But the accounts kind of differ from there . There's one account where you can see there's a claim that his servant killed him , which makes no sense to me , because why would he rescue him to take him out into the desert to kill him ? He could have left him there . But the more realistic story and the more common story is that Gruber , who's not been getting exercise and is not presumably in great physical shape , it kind of collapses and asks Atenacio to go ahead and find water . But I guess they had two horses , because Gruber had a horse too .

Speaker 2 22:06

But Atenacio does leave and in some accounts Atenacio's gore . He finds water and is trying to carry it back . It falls and breaks so he has to head back and soak a saddle blanket and try to get back to the German . But by the time he gets back Gruber had possibly panicked , possibly succumbed to some ravings and wandered off . A search party wouldn't find him , but a few weeks later they found a dead horse tied to a tree and a doublet lined with otter skin which had belonged to El Alamon and scattered around found several ribs , some chewed bones and a massive hair . So they gathered up what they could find , took it back to Senefe After setting up our cross at the spot which became known as La Cruz de Alamon and later Alamon New .

Speaker 1 23:21

Mexico . And if you go east of Tiersie now today you cross the Elephant Butte dam and you go east and you head through that little mountain range , there is a historical marker that supposedly is approximately where he was found or died or something along those lines , heading out towards Engle and Alamon , new Mexico . Yeah . Which maybe four or five , six people live in those communities combined .

Speaker 2 24:01

Yeah , they're pretty empty places out there , so I guess whatever happened to his quote unquote assistant .

Speaker 2 24:17

Well , he apparently lived , I mean he made it through and continued his life from there and kind of passes into history . But he certainly doesn't ever really face justice for breaking the German out , which is probably good . You know , presumably , like you said , johnny , if he's from the Apache people from that region , he would have known a lot more about that area than anyone else and probably , you know it would have been hard for anybody to keep up with a guy that could travel and communicate in Spanish and indeed indigenous languages there . So he kind of passes into obscurity .

Speaker 1 25:10

So we have the Spaniards in the late 1600s traveling up and down and the Camino Real was very important , at least for the Spaniards , and later Mexico , because that was the only trade route for northern New Mexico and until , obviously , the Santa Fe Trail in 1821 . So that was the only way for folks to get any information from the old world , if you will , for a long time and , drew , if you know of anything about the Spanish Inquisition in northern New Mexico , there's a really good book about the Sephardic Jews colonizing or whatever the term would be establishing themselves in northern New Mexico . There's a book called , I think , to the ends of the earth . That's really fascinating about the measures that people undertook to escape the Spanish Inquisition . It was less fair than it probably should have been , to say it nicely .

Speaker 2 26:20

Oh yeah , yeah , I mean I haven't read that book , but I do know that . You know , we always hear 1492 is the year of Columbus , but it's also the year that the King of Castile and Etihad unites Spain and one of the first orders that Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand put out is all Jews , all Muslims , must convert or go into exile or face execution .

Speaker 1 26:52

So convert or die yeah , so yeah .

Speaker 2 26:57

So a lot of people kind of chose that third path get as far away from the , the holy Inquisition , as they could and some of them did wind up coming out here , so kind of continued to practice .

Speaker 1 27:16

Right . This route was used for hundreds of years , I guess , and , and , and . Eventually , as we know our history , spanish were overthrown in 1821 by the , the Mexican Republic and I , but I presume the Camino Real was less important , but maybe it was still important , I'm not sure , but it was until 18 . What was the Mexican-American War ?

Speaker 1 27:48

1848 , 1848 , yeah , 1846 , 1848 , when the United States took over this region assumed jurisdiction , yeah , of this region and and very close thereafter , the Civil War took place and drew , I don't know if you know the Battle of Valverde and the first battle . If you maybe not the first battle , but that battle near Fort Craig is also out there on the Hornada , essentially the Hornada del Muerto , the northern portion of the Hornada del Muerto .

Speaker 2 28:29

That's the . That's the site where the Confederates actually won right . They defeated a force partially led by Kit Carson and and continued north until eventually they would meet their , their , their match , but Pecos and Gloria right exactly and and even though they won , you know , some would say they lost because they didn't cover .

Speaker 1 28:58

They didn't capture Fort Craig , but the the , the Confederates under General Sibley , went that route . As far as I know , I could be wrong , but I think I think they went that route north from Messia where Colonel Baylor was and they went that route and , shockingly , were really thirsty and hungry after that that journey and then they were not able to capture Fort Craig and in lieu of okay , wasting energy or whatever , they took off north and went went into Albuquerque to prepare for the Battle of Gloriata Pass .

Speaker 1 29:40

Yeah , so some folks stayed behind the , the Unionists stayed behind and and kept Fort Craig . Fort Craig was very well positioned at the time and had very well had a lot of resources for folks in that area .

Speaker 2 30:04

All right , and we know they , the Confederates , did take wagon trains across that Huarnada , because eventually , that's that's how we , the Colorado and New Mexico volunteers , managed to defeat them . They so some people still claim that , gloriata , more Union troops were killed than Confederates , but meanwhile some of the Union forces dropped down behind the Confederate lines and burned their wagons , and so at that point there was no longer an option to maintain any kind of invading force , and that closed the the chapter of the Civil War , and what was a ? General Sibley and his forces retreated back to Texas , thank God .

Speaker 1 30:49

Yeah , although some would argue they should have finished them off before they got to Texas . But so after the Civil War , after the United States took possession of that , of course , the United Statesians started to move in and I don't know if you've heard of this story , drew , but have you heard of the story of Jack Martins well ?

Speaker 1 31:13

No , no . So Jack Martins , well , it was a well in the southern portion of and it's not in our outline here , but Jack Martins well was , you know , prior to the Spanish . It used to be a little bit wetter up there and or down there where we're looking , and there was a well or an area called Ojo de Muerto . It used to be reliable during the Spanish times , but that dried up , and so folks near Alamon or Engel , down there , they needed , they needed water to make that journey .

History of Hornada Del Muerto Exploration

Speaker 1 32:00

They were still using the Hornado de Muerto post Civil War as a trade route or as a traveling route , rather , and there's a guy , I believe his name is Jack Martin , who dug a well and he I can't remember where I've read this or seen this , but he dug a well and he dropped all sorts of money and it was his claim to fame , I guess . But on the last day where he was about to give up they were about to give up digging the well they hit water and boom it was , they discovered water and they were able to continue that traveling through that route because of that well , stop for a long time thereafter .

Speaker 2 32:47

Okay , yeah , I'm looking it up and from Sierra County they're saying 1868 was when he dug that well . And the well is still pumping , is it ? Well ? I don't know when this post was created I'd have to but this is from a site called MIMS Memory and from the Sierra County Centennial Video Series , so presumably that might have been a little while ago , but Spaceport America was already in existence and it was still in use .

Speaker 1 33:28

so Okay , Captain Nut . Yes , Jack Martin's well , Captain Jack Martin . Jack Martin was a officer in the Union Army . He came out with the California column , came out to New Mexico Territory in 1862 with the California column . Okay who ?

Speaker 2 33:52

They were coming to help in the Civil War right .

Speaker 1 33:56

They were , they were up to try to track down . Generally , simply , they came a little bit too late . But those folks Colonel Fountain is the famous one , came out with the California column mostly stayed in southern New Mexico and Captain Jack or John Martin dug this well . So for a long time people still traveled that way , until the roads , until the automobile were able to carve out and heavy machinery were able to carve out better trade routes or better roads .

Speaker 2 34:32

In the early 1900s , and today , as we mentioned , that well continued pumping at least up until the Spaceport of America era . So I don't know if that's still working , but you have here that Ted Turner has come to that part of the world . He's the largest , isn't he the largest ranch holder here in New Mexico .

Speaker 1 35:01

I believe he's the largest private landowner in New Mexico and his land down there .

Speaker 1 35:06

I believe there's a couple of them , but the ranch is now known as the Armandaris Ranch or Armandadis Ranch , and that's a fascinating story about succession and claims and stealing consolidation the Armandaris people family . But in long story short , ted Turner has purchased that land . So if you head out east and you hit the Engle head out east from TLC , there is a big sign and I can't tell you how many acres , but we're talking thousands of acres , if not hundreds of thousands of acres of land down there that Ted Turner or whomever owns Ted Turner's ranch is now .

Speaker 1 36:00

I believe around 1990 , 1994 , something like that , he purchased most of that land for about $14 , $50 million or something crazy , but it looks like . Ted Turner owns around there is trying to find the exact acreage , but 358,643 acres for two thirds of the original Armandaris Grant Ted .

Speaker 1 36:34

Turner owns it's just absolutely enormous and it runs from the southern boundary of the Bosque de la Pache to through the historic towns of Tiffany , valverde , la Mesa , south of Engle , which is approximately Space Force America , and the widest point of this ranch is 23 miles east to west . Absolutely massive landholdings down there . 53 miles of the Rio Grande flows through the ranch .

Speaker 2 37:10

Oh my God . Yeah , I'm looking at this site you've posted and , yeah , it covers both sides . Fort Craig that you just mentioned is right next to there and I guess Armandaris was part of the . He was granted it right Right before Mexico won independence from Spain in 1819 , but he was part of the contingent that arrested Zebulon Pike of Pikes Peak . That's right For scouting and he's for scouting out the interior lands of the Spanish .

Speaker 1 37:51

Allegedly .

Speaker 2 37:52

Yeah , allegedly , but he certainly was arrested . But he was working for a lieutenant who became the governor of New Mexico and granted him this very extensive land that he mentioned , the grant number 33 , the grant number 34 . So vast tracts , some of which was privately held by him , I guess Merced , and some of which was like a community land grant . But his holdings would have been huge , absolutely huge and he kept consolidating .

Speaker 1 38:42

I believe his son or his nephew , whomever assumed that , kept consolidating and kept taking stealing whatever the word may be to grow it larger and larger . But one thing I do want to talk about before Ted Turner post-Civil War , before Ted Turner buying this stuff , is the Trinity site , which lies on the northern part of the Hornada and that was the first atomic bomb detonated detonation site July 16 , 1945 . And we all know Oppenheimer's words Now I am become death , the destroyer of worlds . That I think he said when that first bomb was dropped , or maybe it was after that .

Speaker 2 39:41

Yeah , I actually learned this . He may have thought it , but he said it in an interview years later , so he wasn't . But he was saying in his interview . He was saying he was recalling that passage , that passage from the Gotcha , from Hindu scripture .

Speaker 1 40:02

So probably what he's done . Not so ironic , given the Hornada del Muerto , the whole history of the region it is . It fits in line with the Hornada del Muerto .

Speaker 2 40:15

Yeah , and you have a couple of preservation notes . We've already mentioned that , the national monuments at Kodai and Abo and the Salinas Pueblo missions there . They're interesting places to go Because you can certainly see the Kiva practices being practiced right next to the churches that they're building . So the indigenous religion was preserved in a form there . One of the Kivas is actually rectangular , which may or may not have been a European influence . I guess those occasionally show up . Most Kivas were round , but that's of course the underground ceremonial site , that kind of where the Pueblans honored their ancestors , many of whom had dug pit houses originally . But you mentioned the point of rocks trail too , johnny .

Speaker 1 41:25

Yeah , there are a couple . If you really want to get out there and explore this on your own , there's a couple different trails the point of rocks trail , which is a half mile loop that starts at the ends at the top of a rock outcrop that was a landmark for travelers on the Camino Real Point of rocks . This area informed or signified to travelers that water was only 10 miles away from that location . So you can get to it from a couple different ways but I-25 , you exit 79 and head east for about 30 miles and you're out in the middle of nowhere . But it's a pretty cool little trail . If you want to see what it was like way back in the day , that's one that you can go check out .

Speaker 1 42:25

There's another one called the Yoast Excarpment Trail , which is part of the original trail section , I believe , of the we're not at El Merto . It's about a mile and a half long . It ends at the top of an excarpment which is a steep rocky slope . That quote was a true test for the caravans with huge freight wagons , according to the NPS . And you get there from I-25 , exit 79 and head east on 51 for about 17 miles or , excuse me , then you get to up in Marode and then you head south 17 miles . We're talking in the middle of nowhere . If you do go out there , make sure you have lots of gasoline in your vehicle .

Speaker 2 43:15

Or charge these days .

Speaker 1 43:18

Or charge , but I can assure you there are zero charging stations out there . I believe that . I believe that . So I wouldn't take an electric vehicle , just in case . Don't go during the summertime , probably don't go during the wintertime and if you go , take lots of water , just in case . Last time I went a few years ago my cell phone didn't even work , which now it works almost anywhere , but it wasn't working out there and it's kind of desolate . It's really quite remarkable .

Speaker 2 43:46

But and we do have links to these directions . You don't have to memorize the routes , but everyone's always welcome to download a podcast before they go in , because you probably won't have a lot of listening choices if you travel out there .

Speaker 1 44:10

Anyway , that's all I got drew the Hornada del Muerto . I'm sure there's stuff we missed , and so if y'all , if anybody listening , wants to send in a message or an email us or something , you can find that on our website and we'll put that in the links how to contact us through our social media . But the Hornada del Muerto is one of the most historically significant locations in the United States , in my opinion , that folks don't really know about . And one thing that I did forget , that we will bring up at some point drew , is Victoria's Peak , which is also in the Hornada del Muerto . But there's so much history down there , so much going on without realizing it . There's a lot that has gone on down there .

Speaker 2 45:08

Absolutely , absolutely and again , safe travels to everyone if they do travel through there . And yeah , it was the most perilous part of what some people say is the most important of the three Western trails for a long time you know that Oregon Trail , the Santa Fe Trail and the Camino Real are all considered some of those important passages from before the railroads came through , but from much of our history that was the most important of the three .

Speaker 1 45:51

All right On . Thanks everybody for listening . Right Until next time , please visit our website enchantmentchroniclescom and any of our social media . But until next time , safe travels .

Speaker 2 46:04

Adios , adios .

Speaker 1 46:07

Adios .